Road Work Ahead

#6 - Yuval Ackerman: The Value of Email, Building Audiences, First-Party Data, Personalization

• Waypost Studio | Sam Gerdt • Season 1 • Episode 6

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I talk a lot about new technology with my guests, but maybe the most valuable way to connect with your audience isn't new at all. Email has been used and abused to the point that most people, marketers and salesmen included, have given up on investing any real thoughtfulness into their approach. As an industry, we've reduced email to a numbers game.

But email could be so much more! We should be realizing that email is the last remaining opportunity to claim complete ownership of a communications channel, and it's your best shot at collecting and leveraging the purest first-party customer data you're ever gonna to get.

This week I sat down with Yuval Ackerman for what turned out to be a masterclass in ethical email marketing. Yuval is one of the most thoughtful marketers I've met, and she's somebody who's absolutely nailing the human connection in this present age of terrible AI writing and cold emails that nobody asked for. Trust me, you'll want to take notes on this one.

Join Yuval's email list: https://ackermancopywriting.com/subscribe

Sam Gerdt:

Welcome everybody to Roadwork Ahead, a podcast that explores the unmapped future of business and technology. My name is Sam Gerdt and I am your host. I talk a lot about new technology with my guests, but maybe the most valuable way to connect with your audience isn't new at all. Email has been used and abused to the point that most people marketers and salesmen especially have given up on investing any real thoughtfulness into their approach. As an industry, we've reduced it to a numbers game, but email could be so much more. We should be realizing that it's the last remaining opportunity to claim complete ownership of a communications channel, and it's your best shot at collecting and leveraging the purest customer data you are ever going to get.

Sam Gerdt:

This week, I sat down with Yuval Ackerman for what turned out to be a masterclass in ethical email marketing. Yuval is one of the most thoughtful marketers I've ever met and she's somebody who's absolutely nailing the human connection in this present age of terrible AI writing and cold emails that nobody asked for. Trust me, you'll want to take notes for this one. I think the first question I want to ask is why is email so many years after it came along and kind of blew everybody away? You know we're close to 30 years in now with email. Why is email still such a valuable channel? Why is it worth investing in?

Yuval Ackerman:

Sure, what a wonderful question. Let me just correct you to begin with. We're talking about 50 years of email.

Yuval Ackerman:

Okay, 50 years 50-ish since the first email was sent. Why is it so powerful? Why people need to give it more credit. First of all, let's go back to the basics. Email is an electronical mail. Now, I don't know about you, Sam. Back when I used to live in one permanent place, I used to love opening my postbox every day and see if I have letters inside, regardless of what letters those were and we're talking about bills, right but I was very excited to see my name on letters, because there's something about this feeling of this direct communication that no other channel that I've seen so far can replicate.

Yuval Ackerman:

So, first of all, it's this really direct connection, human connection. Second of all, all of the research in the world in the past couple of years has shown that email is actually the most profitable marketing channel out there. We're talking about, on average, a return on investment of something between $38 to $44 for every dollar spent. So that's powerful. And, last but not least, let's not forget that an email list that you have, that you nurture, that you grow, is yours. No algorithm, no social media platform, no billionaire can take it away from you in a blink of an eye. It's something that you own. It's something that people opted in, hopefully with their consent, and this is so powerful, and people who don't understand that this is unbiased, obviously, but the most important marketing channel that they own, need to start seriously thinking of how do they get to the point that they have one and they have a list that they can rely on.

Sam Gerdt:

It's such an interesting point. I feel like we don't fully realize what ownership of data really of access, ownership of access means. Maybe we go into that a little bit more. Why is ownership so important? What's happening with other channels that would make someone owning their email channel such a valuable thing?

Yuval Ackerman:

That's such a great question. So let me use an example that happened to me a few months back. I'm using for my own marketing. I'm using LinkedIn as my main channel, aside from my email list, obviously, and I have a couple of thousands of followers over there. I don't have as many people on my email list, because email lists are something that not many people like to be on, and that's completely fine.

Yuval Ackerman:

But then one day I went to this networking event and I connected with a lot of new people and something in the back end of LinkedIn raised an alarm and they told me basically, you're using a bot or a third party, something to connect with all of those people. Therefore, we're blocking you. And then, in a split of a second, I could not access my network, my connections, my community, and that is something that, luckily, I have my own email list, so if I had to rely only on my email list, I could have, but still, linkedin is not mine, and who knows what's happening in the background and it's not something that you can control. And who knows? That was my first strike, so to speak, but if it was my second or my third, who knows, maybe I would have never gotten it back.

Sam Gerdt:

Censorship is something that we think a lot about, as it relates to critique of government or even the spread of false information. We see this more and more, where censorship has become a divisive topic, but censorship is not the only thing that we're talking about here. We're talking about simple mistakes. A simple mistake can cost you access to an entire audience. Obviously, there's degrees, so it's not just simple mistakes. There's all kinds of things in between a simple misunderstanding and a real reason for censorship. The point I think that you're making, though, is you have somebody who is not you, who doesn't know you, who has their own agenda, who has absolute control, to turn your voice off with the flip of a switch, and, admittedly, oftentimes they're not even aware that they're doing it. It's completely automated, or it's behind the scene, or even a third party is handling it for them. So there you have another level of ambiguity who is actually in control of your channel?

Yuval Ackerman:

And more so, figure out how to restore everything, because all of those big social media platforms, they don't really care about your profile, even if you're paying a lot of money for ads. Sometimes I mean go fish.

Sam Gerdt:

That's absolutely right. It puts email in a stunningly new light. If you take a minute just to rest and think about it, right there You're like OK, what do I actually own when I have this big following on social media? What do I own? People say, well, you own your channel, but if your channel can be turned off for any reason, then do you actually own it? Let's redefine what ownership actually is. How about data privacy? How does that play into this? I know that this has become a much more hot button issue, especially in Europe, where you are with GDPR, but how does data privacy make owning your channel that much more valuable?

Yuval Ackerman:

I mean, when you own the data, you can connect with and to your audience directly, and you don't have to rely on algorithms, you don't have to rely on ads.

Yuval Ackerman:

You own the data that you wish to collect, and that's another point that is important for me to put out there. I think that a lot of big brands out there miss out on so many opportunities. Even those who have huge email lists and a lot of supposed data, they're not necessarily collecting the right data or the data that would serve both them and their subscribers, and so I think that, especially with email marketing, we have an opportunity here. It's a huge opportunity to collect data that is going to serve, as I said, both the brand who's sending those emails and the recipient as well. So, whichever data you're collecting, you don't have to rely on cookies as well, by the way, which is something that, as we know, in a few months' time, will not be a part of our world anymore, supposedly. And, yeah, the more data you're gathering as you go, the more first party and zero-party data that you're collecting, the better you can serve your audience and the individuals in your audience, as well as your brand.

Sam Gerdt:

It's interesting with the influx of all of these things and there's a convergence, I think, on this one issue. You have regulation, with GDPR. You have AI and its ability to take data collection and move it to a completely new and very scary level. You have cybersecurity concerns, and all of that has led us to recognize that maybe collecting freely all of this third-party data and having complete access to it is a bad thing, which then leads to us saying, no, we're going to get rid of all that. So there's been this walk back, and you see it with Google. You saw it with Google Analytics earlier in the year when they forced the new version. They're doing the same with cookies, like you mentioned. They're walking back the ability for people to collect this third-party data, especially without consent, and that's where the regulation comes in. I think GDPR was very clear on that, and so, with all of that, email then becomes that much more valuable because you have first, like you're saying, first party or even zero-party access to the valuable data that you're using then to do marketing and sales.

Yuval Ackerman:

Yeah, correct, and it's a huge question here to ask of which data are you collecting and how, so it both complies with the rules that are here in Europe, for example, how do we also use those rules or those limitations, so to speak, to actually benefit from the kind of connection that we want to nurture with our audience?

Sam Gerdt:

What was the perspective in Europe when GDPR was coming around, when this regulation was being developed and then when it finally passed and then when it was rolled out? What was the European perspective on that? Is that something that I think was different here in America?

Yuval Ackerman:

I could not tell you myself because I wasn't there in the field when it happened. I can only assume that people were delighted that their privacy is being kept by the rules and by laws and that someone is taking care of them and of their privacy.

Sam Gerdt:

That's the overwhelming sentiment now, then, is that GDPR is a good thing.

Yuval Ackerman:

Generally, yes, I mean don't get me wrong there are a lot of brands here in Europe that are struggling with this, A lot of brands in the UK who are now very confused by GDPR. No GDPR, what are we doing? What are we following? But, generally speaking, as someone who has only worked under GDPR, I think it's a marvelous thing If you know what to do with it.

Sam Gerdt:

Yeah, I think it's a mixed bag here, but I think generally we've seen nothing but good come out of it, especially from the consumer perspective. I think in time, once we see more of the advanced data analytics that say AI can provide, we're going to realize that having that vast amount of third-party data is actually counterproductive. I think what I mean by that is the consumers will rebel against it. By using it, you'll only be able to be accused of manipulation, of spying, of all of these negative things. I do think and I believe you'll agree wholeheartedly with me on this, I do think that when a brand takes the time to build a trust relationship and collect data firsthand, that data, number one, it's way more actionable. And, number two, it's a positive reaction from the consumer when it's used, rather than a negative reaction.

Yuval Ackerman:

Absolutely. It is a win-win situation Again, if you know what you're doing and if you're taking the time and the resources to invest in strategic thinking of data collection and email marketing as a whole.

Sam Gerdt:

It reminds me of when your spouse says they drop hints over and over again what they want for a birthday or for whatever, and you listen and are attentive and you deliver and there's that satisfaction there, versus when maybe you go in and you read their diary or their journal and you say I found it, and then you go by.

Sam Gerdt:

Obviously, one's going to get a positive reaction and one's going to get a very negative reaction. I feel like that's what companies need to see. We're scaling up to that degree. It's like do you want to read their diary or do you want them to drop hints? And you pick up on it and get that rewarding experience. Is email the best way, then, to get that first party and that zero-party data, or are there other channels where this works really well too?

Yuval Ackerman:

It depends in your overall marketing mix. I know of a company that collects a lot of really useful first party and zero-party data. They're collecting that data on site, so you do need to have some kind of a very advanced yet simple quiz slash pop-up. They collect all of this data and then they're referring to segments created in email marketing. Can different brands have success in other channels other than email marketing? Absolutely. However, if you do want to step into this room and make the best use out of it, I believe and also the research has shown that you can turn it to be the most profitable marketing channel out there and the most community and audience nurturing there is out there, Because everything basically stamps from email and then goes to different or other platforms like Facebook communities or Slack channels.

Sam Gerdt:

So then, if email is the most valuable way of getting this, we have to talk about building audiences and how you accomplish that, Because building an email audience, in my opinion I've been in marketing for 15 years is one of the biggest challenges compared to audience building anywhere else. If you're attempting to build a list of really engaged and valuable contacts, how are you convincing them to opt in? What's happening before they're a part of your list?

Yuval Ackerman:

So you either need to tap into what we call, in copywriting, pain points, which is not something that I'm a huge fan of, but it's working if you know what you're doing and you're not doing this too aggressively and you're basically solving a problem, or you're promising to solve a problem. That's one way. The second way has to do with some kind of exclusivity or some kind of entering a community. If that's something that your subscribers, your ideal subscribers, are interested in. Basically, it all boils down to what interests them right now and what's in it for them to give you their precious email address. Let's face it basically your email address is basically the last sacred space or property in the internet that is ours, fully ours. So it needs to be worth it for whoever is seeing your pop-up or your signup form to want to join.

Sam Gerdt:

So if the email marketer, then, is taking that perspective which they should, that their target's email address is precious, that it is special, how are you treating the person behind the email address in order to communicate that in all of that pre-opten content?

Yuval Ackerman:

Well, you basically treat them as people, not as walking wallets, and you market to them as you would like to be marketed to with dignity, with respect, and you basically treat it as if you're dating someone. The last thing you would want to get when you're dating someone is to meet someone and all of a sudden they're just forcing themselves on you with okay, let's jump into bed and buy my things. That's not working anymore. If that's not what your subscribers want, when most of them don't want that, then it's not going to work. So you treat them with respect and you build this connection first and you tend to their needs and you show them what you're capable of with your solution and you start from there.

Sam Gerdt:

That's an interesting analogy, because my next question was going to be how does that relationship change once they have opted in, or does it change?

Yuval Ackerman:

It does change because, again, there's this best practice, so to speak, especially with e-commerce, which is one of the main audiences that I'm working with, or the main brands that I'm working with that you have to push your product as soon as possible and get the product into your subscribers' hands so they can make up their minds and see whether or not they continue with you. Yet again, most people see your welcome sequence and all you're saying there is how we founded our startup or how our story began, and here's 10% off and here's free shipping, when, in fact, that's not what most of your subscribers want from you. They want to hear what's in it for them. Yet again, how can you solve their problems and how can they connect with you as a brand and the people behind the brand Not jumping into bed two minutes after they subscribed?

Sam Gerdt:

You're promoting, then pushing I shouldn't say pushing creating an intermediary space where you're engaging with new opt-ins before the selling process. Most companies don't have a lot of… content there and they don't have a lot of eyes there. They're not necessarily looking at that intermediary space. So how do you, in your own role as an email marketer, how do you encourage clients to invest in that space from opt-in in, between opt-in and selling?

Yuval Ackerman:

Right. So I usually talk about the welcome experience as a whole as something that every brand on earth needs to take care of, and that includes the opt-in. That includes the thank you page or the success message and the welcome sequence. Now, usually, in most cases, I do see that pretty much and I'm generalizing pretty much every brand out there is lacking something in one of those stages or more. So, when it comes to the opt-in process, you definitely do want to collect data first, and zero party data from your new subscribers. You want to ask them what is it that they are interested in? And if you cannot do that, then I would highly recommend going and talking with your existing subscribers, your most and engaged subscribers, and basically asking them what would make you re-subscribe to our brand's newsletter? What would be a good enough exchange for you to go ahead and re-subscribe? So that's one. The success message needs to write away or refer to the inbox.

Yuval Ackerman:

Now, if we're going back to the trust issue, a lot of brands out there are telling you, as a new subscriber if you've seen or if my emails have blended in the Promotions tab, go ahead and drag them into the Primary tab, which is a huge mistake, in my opinion, for a couple of reasons. First of all, you haven't earned their trust to be in the Primary tab. Second of all, the Promotions tab is where they expect you to land. You are sending promotional emails, after all. And then there's the Welcome Experience, which, as I mentioned before, is usually a very quick hey, buy my stuff right now or forever, hold your peace and that's all. The fake. Scarcity and urgency is something that I can talk about forever, but it's very, very unnecessary in today's age.

Sam Gerdt:

It sounds like, then, what you're doing on the back end is a lot of segmentation, paying attention to engagement on an individual level even, and then pulling multiple lists, multiple segments. Is that something that you're doing on every email list, or is it something that you're only doing when you reach a certain point in terms of numbers?

Yuval Ackerman:

It's something that you need to do as soon as you possibly can, of course, within reason. I mean, I wouldn't segment your audience right from the get-go into 10 different segments or 20 different segments. That's not something that you can manage, that, obviously. But it also depends on your resources and your manpower, et cetera. I like sticking to very basic segmentations. Depends on the brand, depends on the audience, and that's something that I definitely recommend anyone who can to start investing in from pretty much day zero.

Sam Gerdt:

Do you like automation for this process, or do you prefer to do it yourself?

Yuval Ackerman:

then oh, those are a must. I don't have the time to sit and segment my clients, subscribers. I mean, it's just not possible.

Sam Gerdt:

I was just curious because you take such a personal approach to all of it. I was just curious if automation played a part in it. I think along those same lines you could ask the same thing about third-party data. Do you use third-party data when you're making those decisions, or do you insist on only first and zero party?

Yuval Ackerman:

I insist on zero and first party just because of two reasons. First of all, consent is huge. It's a huge part of what I do and it's a huge part of why my clients work with me. And, second of all, there's no point in investing in let's call it technology that it is not going to be available or isn't going to be out there in just a couple of months. What's the point in that? Let alone the fact that it's not accurate in some of the cases.

Sam Gerdt:

Let's say that you have a list of 100 subscribers in a particular segment. You're not looking at your engagements with those people outside of email to determine what you do with them inside of email, or are you?

Yuval Ackerman:

Well, everything is connected. So ideally, even those 100 subscribers need to be I'm going to use a word that I'm not really liking but they need to be tracked, and obviously everything is connected, especially with e-commerce, by the way. I mean, you cannot have a standalone subscriber who clicked on a bunch of links in your email and then stayed on your website and then you're not sending them an abandoned card or browse email. I mean, that's just ridiculous, right? So obviously within reason, but people and subscribers need to. We need to see what they're doing across different channels, because everything is connected.

Sam Gerdt:

It sounds like the basis of what you're saying is, when you start treating people like people and respecting their privacy, their boundaries, there's still an expectation that you're going to use the tools that we have, like tracking, like automation, to make our ability to reach so many people that much easier and more effective. But what we're not doing is crossing that line into using the tools in a way that the consumer maybe doesn't understand or in a way that they're not aware of.

Yuval Ackerman:

Or in a way that they don't consent to. Definitely I cannot tell you how many times I've seen my email address being spread across different lists even though I never opted in, or I opted into lists where I was in one location and then, because it was third party cookies, whoever is managing this list just determined that this is my location. So then you're also getting a very, very not accurate personalized experience which makes you, as the recipient, think what happened there? What happened there? I mean, I don't live in Lisbon. Why do you have it in your system? So it creates a very generic experience, which is the last thing that we want to let our subscribers feel.

Sam Gerdt:

I think this is an area where marketers who deal less with GDPR are probably deficient, and that is the granular level at which opt-in is expected or necessary in order to be above board, but also in order to be effective. We tend to think that, for a particular business, if we get an email from somebody, then, within the purview of that business, we can use that email however we see fit. And not only is that not true, at least by this GDPR standard, which is a European standard, not necessarily an American standard not only is that not true, but it's also not helpful, because what you're doing is you're risking frustrating the end user, the consumer, rather than actually meeting their need, which, presumably, if you've built trust up to the point that they gave you their email, you're really betraying trust.

Yuval Ackerman:

Oh yeah, absolutely, and it's not something that I'm only seeing happening in Europe. I'm already seeing more and more people all over the world just posting things you know all across social media just saying you know, you really, really messed up this first impression because all I wanted to do is to have, let's say, we're talking about small businesses here, but all I wanted to do is to have a demo with you or a coffee chat with you, and I never consented that you would add me to your list. You never asked me for my consent, and so it's very, very hard to correct such a bad first impression, and that's what I want each and every one of our listeners to remember.

Sam Gerdt:

So a very common workflow that we see often is someone will create a piece of content that's valuable, and then they'll put up ads for that piece of content. They'll list it in email in order to get that piece of content. All fine and good. What happens next, though, is they take that email or that phone number, or whatever it was, and they immediately reach out for a sales call for their platform or their product. That's not necessarily super related to the piece of content, and what this does is it creates a little bit of confusion and a little bit of frustration, because, first of all, it should be apparent If I gave you my email address to get this piece of content, I wanted that piece of content. I didn't necessarily want something else, and secondly, like you're saying, you didn't ask for permission to give me the sales spiel. You asked for permission for this other offer, and I think that's the granular part that we miss out on here, and I think it is uniquely something that belongs to marketers that aren't necessarily paying close attention to things like GDPR.

Sam Gerdt:

That actually happened to me the other day. I saw an e-book that I really wanted to read, and it had to do with agency operations, and next thing. I knew I was getting a cold call on a platform that wasn't related to agency operations and I was confused how that happened. But it was, because of that first interaction, Something to be aware of absolutely Once you have that audience. There's so much email going back and forth. It's like you talked about at the beginning that mailbox and you want something with your name on it. Is there ever a point where you walk out to the mailbox and it's absolutely stuffed like it's overflowing, and you open it up and it's a disappointment because it's all junk, it's all nonsense. Does that ruin the experience? Is there a sense in which you're just never going to cut through the noise of someone whose inbox is essentially ruined by that?

Yuval Ackerman:

Yeah, absolutely, and I'm hearing about so many people who have thousands of unread emails or inboxes that they just opened for such promotions because they knew that they're going to be bombarded with such emails. And that's one of the main challenges that I think e-commerce brands and sometimes other B2B brands just don't realize what's happening on the other side, or how is it the emails are being perceived, or the cadence. There are no quick fixes to that, I do have to admit, but I would definitely invest in a good welcome experience. A good welcome experience means that your subscriber is going to remember your name, your sender's name, and they are going to automatically link your value with your sender's name. So then it doesn't matter which subject line you're sending your email with. They're always going to open, or they're mostly going to open most of your emails.

Yuval Ackerman:

So that's one thing, but another thing which I really love talking about is giving your subscribers the autonomy and the power of choice to decide how many emails they want to receive, and for that you do have to have a little workaround. But I definitely recommend any brand out there to have a more than basic preferences center where your subscriber can just go and say listen, I just want to get one email from you every month. I want to receive two emails from you a week, but given people really the power to choose their own experience and to play around with it. Because, at the end of the day, if we're playing around with that experience and if we're given that power of choice, we're going to remember that brand that allowed us to do so much, much better.

Sam Gerdt:

There's so much bad email out there and it just keeps coming there. Just doesn't seem to be an end to it. It doesn't sound like many people are believing what you're talking about. It sounds like that email is just something that they do. Is that your perception? Or people just believing something differently than what you believe? Why is there so much bad email?

Yuval Ackerman:

There's so much bad email because a lot of marketers have abused this channel for way, for far too long, and I think that people who believe that email is just not the way to go were only exposed to that kind of bad marketing and bad marketers who have forgotten what it is like to build and nurture a relationship with another human being through a screen. And so I mean it was also hard for me initially to reconcile this oh, I want to do email marketing, but email marketing is also so sleazy and so icky. So how do I find a healthy middle? And there is a way to do email marketing in a positive, helpful, useful way. It's just a matter of how, and I find that a lot of companies and brands that just choose to stick to the best practices without actually asking their audiences is that what you want?

Yuval Ackerman:

Those are the brands who abuse email marketing and really use it as a channel. I mean, they might as well just stop emailing all together, even though it works for some audiences. Right, all of those so-called best practices. But I do believe that there is a way to do email marketing in a way that is useful, in a way that is human. It's just a matter of wanting to go one step beyond and choosing the hard work, because it is hard work to really get to know your audience and cater to their needs and desires. It is hard work. You cannot choose shortcuts just because your competitor has chosen the 10% off your first purchase and it worked for them, so it might as well just work for us. It doesn't work this way.

Sam Gerdt:

Can you give me some examples of some of the best practices that you avoid?

Yuval Ackerman:

Best practices that I would avoid are any kinds of best practices that have been used again by your competitors with similar audience to yours and you're just copying and pasting it. So that's one. Any kind of fake scarcity and fake urgency is a big no-no, because people can see right through it very, very instantly. Anything that has to do with lying just straight out, lying to your subscribers or not appreciating their humanness and their being a part of your process and your journey, because, honestly, without your subscribers, who are your customers, you don't have any justification to keep your doors open as a brand. So those are the best practices, in a nutshell, that I would avoid at all costs.

Sam Gerdt:

We have more and more, I see this companies, especially email service providers, offering tools, ai tools, often to help craft things like the subject line, to modify or edit the copy, even templating. Generally, is this something that you're wary of or is it something that you're hopeful for?

Yuval Ackerman:

Both, actually, because I think that AI is really going to help us a lot with plenty of things. Would I rely on it as is and just send something that AI generated without double checking it? Absolutely not, not at this point in time when we're recording this. I've seen a lot of bad copy written by AI, and I mean lots of it, not only in email marketing, but just spread around and across the net, and if people think that it's not apparent, then they're lying to themselves mostly.

Sam Gerdt:

So what do you think then AI is gonna be able to do well?

Yuval Ackerman:

AI, at least in email marketing, is going to really help with building really well-crafted automations that cater to different needs of different segments or different subscribers. That is something that I'm very hopeful for, because I would love to get to the point where I'm just going into whichever email service provider and just type create the segment, does this and that and this and that point and create that segment, then tag anyone who clicks on those links, ta-da-da, and then it just happens and I don't have to drag and drop. Now some of the ESPs out there are working on similar things with various levels and ranges of success. It's not something that I personally have seen executed perfectly, but it's getting there.

Sam Gerdt:

Would you consider then using let's say, you've got AI doing pattern recognition in your interactions with subscribers and in the process of pattern recognition it generates insights into your audience. Would you consider using those insights third party or would you be willing to use them and consider them first party, if it's not necessarily a human that's picking up on a pattern?

Yuval Ackerman:

Well, I see those as first party, because people have interacted with our emails or with our website and then AI that is just embedded onto our emails or backhand or whatever gathers the conclusions. I don't see it as third party whatsoever and I'm actually very thrilled to see such tools being used more and more in the future if they serve the audience in the right way.

Sam Gerdt:

And that goes back to to maintaining good trust relationship with the people on your list, because I think one of the things that we saw where there was this backlash was pattern recognition was used in human behavior before. The difference was well, I wasn't interacting with you, you were just watching me. So in this case, because you have a trust relationship with a specific audience, because you have ownership of that list, the sense of ability to do something and the ability to say, use those tools to study and learn about your audience, it becomes appropriate.

Yuval Ackerman:

And I also want to mention that you know we're talking about trust as if it's a destination that we're just getting to. Trust is never a destination. It's a journey. Even if you got someone's trust along the way, it doesn't mean that they will necessarily trust you in a weeks time or in a months time. It's something that you have to keep on nurturing and building and reiterating. It's not a one and done thing.

Sam Gerdt:

Yeah, I agree. I think we've seen this. I think anybody who works in an agency setting or ongoing relationship with a client knows this firsthand. Even when we are dealing with our client, not necessarily marketing to their audiences the importance of maintaining and building trust, we like to, we can be guilty of putting the majority of the value in these relationships on the front end and then being surprised when, a few years down the road, things start to go poorly and it's because, well, you haven't been maintaining, you haven't been building and adding to that trust relationship.

Yuval Ackerman:

Yeah, I think that a lot of marketers out there, regardless of email marketing, they forget that we're marketing to people and human psychology. As complex as it is, it's also pretty simple as soon as you know what it is that you're dealing with and how people form relationships in the real world. That's exactly what you need to replicate in the online space and I get that a lot of people and a lot of marketers, myself included it's very human. We want to have shortcuts, we want to have quick wins, but eventually we cannot reach those quick wins with everyone straight off the bat. It doesn't work like this. There are humans on the other side and, as you mentioned the cold calling a few minutes ago, it's just basically going from first base to third base in two seconds. It doesn't work like this.

Sam Gerdt:

Before we leave it, I want to go back to the AI augmented email marketing and just ask what about testing? Is AI for A-B testing something that can be incredibly valuable, or is it still kind of in progress?

Yuval Ackerman:

It's always in progress and it is going to be very, very valuable. Any kind of testing that you can allow yourself to do, with or without AI, is going to be incredibly valuable for your brand and for your audience. So, as long as that kind of testing is something that's even worth testing and not everything is worth testing all the time, but if it is worth testing at that particular point in time, do it absolutely.

Sam Gerdt:

What do you find yourself testing most often?

Yuval Ackerman:

I test mostly subject lines, sender names, all kinds of conditional content depending on who's receiving the email, yeah, and all kinds of different parts of the emails that could be personalized.

Sam Gerdt:

Is personalization something that you've seen get more and more valuable over time, or was it always just absolutely valuable?

Yuval Ackerman:

It's always absolutely valuable. Yet again, it depends how you're doing that, because saying or mentioning someone's first name seven times in 300 word email definitely sounds like you're stepping into a car dealership. With all due respect to car dealership people, it just doesn't sound right. So personalization, again, when done right, it's extremely valuable.

Sam Gerdt:

Can you give me some examples of personalization done right? That might be a little bit more advanced than, say, just opening with the person's first name.

Yuval Ackerman:

Sure, I have seen emails that contain my name in photos. So basically they use the personalization in photos. But personalization doesn't have to be necessarily with the first name, as you mentioned. It can also definitely be in the type of sequence that you're entering or the kind of cadence that you're getting your emails through. Personalization really is a whole world of possibilities.

Yuval Ackerman:

It's really a matter of sometimes it sounds a little silly, but just sitting down with a bunch of your subscribers and asking them okay, so you purchased this thing for me. What do you want to get from me next, aside from their seat for buying whatever it is, what would be useful for you to get from me? Is it how to use it, or is it something? Or do you want to get it maybe just a little bit further down the line? When would you actually like to recommend me to someone else?

Yuval Ackerman:

It could be personalization, also in terms of segmentation. So let's say you have a subscriber that bought something and they want to return it, and there's a ticket open in the customer service department, and what that same subscriber would continue getting is get your second purchase, get your second purchase, get your second purchase, which makes absolutely no sense. And this is exactly for going back to when we said that everything is connected. Everything needs to be connected, because if you have a subscriber that wants to return something and you keep sending them emails that are irrelevant to where they are in their customer journey, you've lost the battle right there. And then.

Sam Gerdt:

And this is truly an opportunity, because I feel like most people have given up on the idea that somebody's gonna do email this. Well, so for me, in your example, if I had made a purchase and was dissatisfied and going through other channels to have that corrected, and I continued to get email from the company encouraging a second purchase, I would not be surprised. I would not feel like, oh, I can't believe they're doing this. It would just be par for the course for email. I would say, oh, of course they're gonna do this. You know they're just sending me these emails blindly. The opportunity, then, what you're saying, is if you can come in and disrupt that expectation and actually show a level of personalization that's aware, and not even in a creepy way, but just in a common sense way, where you're saying, hey, I know you had this problem, let's hold off on future promotions and let's talk about how do we build trust back. And it shifts you into this other workflow where the email tone is completely different. People don't realize how doable that is, but nobody does it.

Yuval Ackerman:

Yeah, very few actually do yeah.

Sam Gerdt:

Yeah, that's such a good example. So, apart from personalization, then, and this kind of segmentation, automation that we've been talking about, let's look at the email itself, and I wanna ask what are the elements on the page that you find to be most effective when you're reaching people like this?

Yuval Ackerman:

Hmm, that's interesting because that really depends on the brand and the timing and so many different factors.

Sam Gerdt:

Yeah, of course yeah.

Yuval Ackerman:

There's something that more and more brands do success more successfully or not but a lot more brands are going back to plain text with one call to action. No fancy buttons or fancy images, just a very straightforward kind of an email of hey, we're having a sale, thought you might be interested in checking it out, click here to also get 20% off from us, for example. And those are very, very powerful when done right, because those feel very personal. It almost feels like a friend wrote that email to you. Obviously, most e-commerce brands don't really collect the first name, because why bother, right? So you don't necessarily get that type of or that level of personalization, but you know, so it really depends it could be plain text. One thing that is really really powerful, as always, is the rule of one of one topic, one reader, one call to action. Keeping it simple, really.

Yuval Ackerman:

Yeah what else could be really really powerful in email formats? That's an interesting question, because it's something that you can also Inside one brand. You can change it all the time and it would still be successful, because you are growing Alongside your audience and your community and maybe something that you're thinking about Is something that your audience doesn't want, or vice versa. I can give the example of HubSpot. They used to have a very successful Newsletters for a newsletter Format for four years and recently they changed it to something a little bit different. Obviously, I don't know their success rate with this one, but I'm really enjoying the new and improved Format and I think it's it's a part of growing a brand and developing as a brand.

Sam Gerdt:

It's interesting that you say that. I've had a discussion recently actually in house here and the question that I was working on a design theory. I like to do this. The question, though, was let's let's say that you have three different emails. You have one email that is spectacularly designed, really, really beautiful graphic design, beautiful template, it displays properly in the email client, it's it's rich with media, it's it's it's just very well designed. And then you have another email with the exact same copy, exact same content, but the the template is is mediocre, it's average, it's just run-of-the-mill. And Then you have a third email. So again, same content, the, the design is bad.

Sam Gerdt:

And Then into that, into that grouping, which obviously we know that, we know that how those would be grouped in terms of quality, into that grouping. Where would you place a plain text email? Would you place it in between the, the perfect and the average, or would you place it below average? Where would you place that? And it's funny, you asked this to a few people and it's not unanimous, but I would say 90% will say it's above the average. It's not gonna replace the perfectly designed, beautiful email, but I would put it above the average designed templated email. And what that tells me is that there are an awful lot of email marketers out there, a lot of brands out there, who could actually cut their expense in developing email campaigns and increase their their efficacy at the exact same time, simply by simplifying how they think about designed emails.

Yuval Ackerman:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that a good mix of the two, if not if all of them, could be a really interesting thing to look at. I'm also thinking specifically of all kinds of Email lists where I know for a fact I mean and that's a good thing that they did in the expectation management Part of the, the welcome experience I expect they're designed to be below par. I expect they're designed to look like it was. You know, you just dragged it out of a 90s computer. But again, that has to do with expectation management. So would any of those examples work for Brands out there? Again, it depends, they all could work definitely.

Sam Gerdt:

It's just an interesting exercise, especially when you relate the channel email with the idea of what a successful brand Looks like. I think there's a trap out there for many marketers that a successful brand is going to be a more advanced design and more advanced Presentation, whereas the brand. There is a disconnect between the brand and the design that the brand employs, the, and that those need to be kept Separate but working together.

Yuval Ackerman:

I think For sure, if anything, I think that the brands that are cutting through the noise know how to balance novelty and safety for their, for their subscribers. And those brands cut through the noise not, you know, by overly designed, perfectly designed emails, but through, you know, very Human to human connection. I can tell you that one of the brands that I read Religiously I read their emails religiously is an e-commerce brand for salt from Alaska and the owner is basically right writing her diary. It's it's as if I'm reading her diary and it's long form, full of gifts, kind of emails, and I read every single one of those and I'm not the only one. So she has a lot of subscribers. So it's really those brands that can surprise their Subscribers but still keep that safe space of we're in this together.

Sam Gerdt:

I wanted to ask how do you feel about video in email?

Yuval Ackerman:

Dangerous. I mean I love linking to video. I think that's an incredible practice if that fits your brand and your audience. I would never embed in video in email because that's a huge Deliverability trap that could. That you could regret for a very long time.

Sam Gerdt:

That's, that's true. I I do know. I mean, I've developed enough email to know that it's one of the hardest. It's one of the hardest channels to develop for because there's there's not a lot of consistency between email clients and you know, for the longest time you're just using 10 year old code Because you know you have to be able to deliver to an older version of outlook. I'm hopeful that that will be standardized in the future, but at the same time, I think if you standardized it, you might you might trap a lot of marketers into thinking they can think less about email Rather than thinking more about it. Is deliverability something that is just constantly like? Does it? Does it cause a lot of anxiety?

Yuval Ackerman:

It is because most of it is unknown to the people that I work with, and deliverability is definitely something that needs to be a part of the email strategy as a whole, as in both preventative care and also, you know, if we need to take care of something right away, we need to know that we have the people to take us out of the block list, or we need to make sure that are that you know why, all of a sudden, our emails are bouncing off the walls like crazy. How do we collect our data? What is happening in the back end? So, definitely something to be aware of, definitely something to incorporate in your email strategy as a whole when I asked the video question, you immediately went to that's a deliverability flag.

Sam Gerdt:

So now I'm curious what are some of those other deliverability flags that you're just conscious of always when you're writing emails?

Yuval Ackerman:

That's a good one. Links from suspicious websites would be a big flag. I want to bust a myth here. A lot of people think that there are certain Spammy words that would get you blocked. Not the case anymore. I really recommend you to dig into this much, much deeper, because it's not. It's not necessarily the case anymore, but you do want to keep your emails rather light in terms of their size, and so don't Include a lot of or too many emails, or make sure that you're rendering properly no emails included in the email itself, but linked to somewhere else. Those are the sorts of things that I'm looking at, to begin with, when it comes to deliverability.

Sam Gerdt:

It's something that everybody fears. I don't. I mean. I get it. I understand why, especially if you rely on email for a major part of your business, but Everybody that I know who deals in email marketing Deliverability is something that keeps them up at night and I'd yeah, such, it's such and it's. It can be so confusing at times too, because it's it's a highly technical issue for one, but then for another we don't necessarily have Insight into why there's a problem.

Yuval Ackerman:

When we see a problem happening, yeah, and luckily there are a lot of deliverability experts and a lot of Great companies that could give you that kind of insight. If anyone is listening and needs that kind of insight, I can connect you to really good people, so let me know.

Sam Gerdt:

What can we take from email marketing and apply to other channels to get more first-party, zero-party data in other areas of our marketing?

Yuval Ackerman:

We need to take it a step back and we need to ask ourselves okay, this is our goal. How do we reverse engineer our way to getting to that goal? Reverse engineering those steps will give you the idea of what is it that you want to collect. What kind of data do you want to collect? When, where and how?

Sam Gerdt:

I'm sorry, I'm just peppering you with questions. I find this all very, very interesting. Last rapid-fire question, and then I want to talk a little bit more about what you're doing specifically, because I think it's really neat. What do you want for the future of email? What's your dream if you could have your way?

Yuval Ackerman:

I really wish more brands and email marketers will understand that we're dealing with humans and, as such, we need to treat them as such.

Sam Gerdt:

I think we agree. That sounds like a really, really great future. Yeah, Yuval, tell me more about what you're doing with the cohorts. You're taking your expertise and you're using it to train more email marketers like yourself. That's my understanding. Can you tell me more about it?

Yuval Ackerman:

When I got into email marketing a few years back, I realized that change has to happen from both sides of the spectrum. I'm working with bigger brands that have more budgets. That's the high end, or the one part of the spectrum. But then there are also all the personal brand owners, the coaches, the consultants that need guidance with how do we market to our communities, to our audiences, in a way that feels right and sustainable. That's the other end of the spectrum.

Yuval Ackerman:

When we will manage to finally meet halfway, that's when I know that my work is done. Luckily, I know that my work will probably never be over. That's that. What I'm doing in my cohorts is that I gather really magnificent people with amazing contribution to the world who want to write consistently and they want to do it strategically. We sit down for strategy calls. I help them with the tech as well. We make sure that they have a plan that they follow or not, because life happens. They have a plan that allows them to connect with their audiences consistently in a way that their audience wants. I'm now running the third cohort for this year and I'm extremely excited to see the progress and the impact that each and every one of those email muscleers are making in the world.

Sam Gerdt:

That must be really satisfying to be able to influence and then see the result. It's like you said, when it's done right. Email is such a warm and inviting channel I can think of the lists that I belong to that I look forward to, I think, for any company to have a channel like that, where you say your customer is actually anxious to hear from you. It can't be ignored. It's such a valuable goal, it's that holy grail of what we're going after as marketers to just be 100% aligned in that way. If anybody's interested in following up with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Yuval Ackerman:

My email list, first and foremost, which you can join at ackermancopywriting. com/subscribe r just connect with me on LinkedIn. Tell me that you listen to this podcast so I can approve you right away, unless I'm not on Instagram, linkedin anymore and I'm blocked, and then I'm only relying on my email list. So join my email list.

Sam Gerdt:

We'll put a link to that somewhere, too, so that people can get it. Yuval, thank you so much for talking with me Again. This was a little bit different than some of my other interviews. I felt like I was just hammering you with question after question, but it's such a broad topic and I feel like you do it very well and I'm with you. This is something that I want to see change for the better in the coming years, so I really appreciate you taking the time to answer all of those questions and to give so much insight into what you're doing. We will surely follow up with you soon to see how things are going.

Yuval Ackerman:

Thank you so much for having me.